Covid 8/19: Cracking the Booster

The news about Covid-19 is now essentially on a few distinct tracks: Vaccine effectiveness and booster shots, vaccination mandates, mandates for NPIs and other Covid-19 related crippling of the living of life, and the actual path of the pandemic. One could argue for splitting those further, or for combining the mandates.

Vaccine effectiveness against the spread of Covid has come into question, with many claiming that immunity fades dramatically with time or that the vaccines were never that effective against Delta. I’ve looked into the claims and go into detail. There’s little question that the vaccinated can spread Covid, which is in contrast to previous attempts to sell the line that they couldn’t at all, and they spread Delta somewhat more than they spread Alpha, the numbers here are disappointing relative to my expectations, but the big claims of hugely waning immunity are almost certainly greatly exaggerated. 

Vaccines remain highly effective at stopping the spread of Covid-19, and of stopping symptomatic disease, and especially in preventing death. Still, boosters are more effective than not having boosters, and I think the cost-benefit for most people favors getting a third shot if one is made available to you. Boosters are coming soon, eight months after your second dose. However, until it is highly encouraged and likely eventually mandatory, it is still for the moment mostly forbidden. Get your shot exactly when we tell you to, they insist, not a minute before.  

There are continuing debates over mask mandates at various meta levels, which led to some sentences that were fun (and tricky) to write. There’s increasing mainstream and in-group pressure to force people to wear masks regardless of whether it does anything useful in context, and to shame those who disagree and blame them along with the unvaccinated for the entire pandemic.

Oh, and also the pandemic is still growing but at a decreasing rate, and case counts are a favorite to mostly stabilize within a few weeks, which is great news. The death rate lags, so it continues to climb rapidly for now.

Let’s run the numbers.

The Numbers

Predictions

Nate Silver, the media’s official master of predictions, officially wouldn’t want to predict this thing. So even though he kind of does, officially he doesn’t. He observes the CDC models are split. Some models think this week is the peak, other models disagree and think things will continue getting worse for some time, but it’s always either one or the other. Odd, but perhaps makes some sense given the sharp peaks elsewhere.

Early this week the NIH director said there were ‘no signs of having peaked out’ which was technically true, but misleading, as I’d noted in last week’s update that there were definitely signs we might be about to peak. Standard stuff, standard line.

I sympathize with Nate, but when it gets hard is exactly when we need people like Nate to step up and take a stand the most, even if they’ll often be wrong, so I’ll give the standard Teddy Rosevelt quote and ask how I did this week.

Prediction from last week: 900k cases (+21%) and 5,028 deaths (+35%).

What’s weird about that prediction is that the percentage here is wrong – 5,028 deaths is a (+48%) increase. I have edited the last post to point this out but note the error. Looking at the context, it’s clear my intent was to predict a +35% rise and I had a spreadsheet error that gave the wrong number, so I shouldn’t get credit for the better ‘actual’ prediction here. Intent should win. The counterargument is that if you do the California correction I’ve now done, this methodology gives a prediction of 5,081 deaths, which is similar. 

Result: 872k cases (+17%) and 5,545 deaths (+48% after correcting for California last week, +63% without that correction).

For cases, we got a good result, where the slowdown was real. For deaths, we got a quite bad result, where the slowdown was a mirage and we are back on the previous trajectory, and likely overshot a bit. Both are common, so predictions have to split the difference, but on reflection the slowdown in deaths couldn’t continue, and I should have predicted at least +50% there. I also should have directly caught the California correction, which I didn’t, and that meant the count a week ago was low by at least 350 deaths there, which accounts for about half the surprise here. I’ve corrected it for the charts and numbers going forward. 

For next week, deaths should continue to rise with lagged cases, so I’m going with +45%. For cases, the slowdown in growth is presumably the new normal, and things should on average continue to slowly improve as more people get infected and vaccinated, and behaviors continue to adjust. The only danger would be if immunity is fading enough to counteract that, which I find unlikely. 

Prediction for next week: 1,000,000 cases (+14%) and 8,040 deaths (+45%).

Deaths

DateWESTMIDWESTSOUTHNORTHEASTTOTAL
Jun 24-Jun 305504597061861901
Jul 1-Jul 74593296121281528
Jul 8-Jul 145323986891451764
Jul 15-Jul 214343417321701677
Jul 22-Jul 2849138510091572042
Jul 29-Aug 469347714153042889
Aug 5-Aug 1170562921812343749
Aug 12-Aug 1891285133943885545

Steady rise across the board. Deaths lag cases by several weeks, so in a few weeks the growth rate should slow a lot, but stabilizing fully will take longer than that. 

Cases

DateWESTMIDWESTSOUTHNORTHEASTTOTAL
Jun 24-Jun 3023,24614,52131,7736,38875,928
Jul 1-Jul 727,41317,46040,0317,06591,969
Jul 8-Jul 1445,33827,54468,12911,368152,379
Jul 15-Jul 2165,91339,634116,93319,076241,556
Jul 22-Jul 2894,42960,502205,99231,073391,996
Jul 29-Aug 4131,19786,394323,06348,773589,427
Aug 5-Aug 11157,553110,978409,18466,686744,401
Aug 12-Aug 18183,667130,394479,21478,907872,182

The slowdown in growth is across the board, with no sign that the South is going to peak first and then we’ll get an explosion in the Northeast. If that happens, which it might, it will probably happen in the winter. 

The test positivity rate has mostly leveled off as well, with a clear phase shift:

Things aren’t quite stable yet let alone going in the right direction, but it seems more likely that the peak (at least for now) is relatively close and not too far above current levels. 

Vaccinations 

I am assuming, but am not fully confident, that third shots are not included in the dose counts above. The percentages should hold either way, and continue to show slow but steady progress. 

Here’s a regional map.

New study finds that vaccines have no effect on pregnancy (study). Mostly third trimester vaccinations since that’s mostly that’s available to study. Most pregnant women are declining the vaccine and there’s lots of FUD going around about how it could be unsafe or bad for fertility. It contains no live virus, and is doubtless being watched very carefully. The short term side effects include fever, which is a reasonable thing to have a nonzero amount of worry about, and a reason to be thankful to have a study. Somehow I doubt many minds will be changed regardless, but it’s good to at least be able to say Studies Show. 

Vaccine Mandates

You know how you convince a lot less than no people to get vaccinated or support your mandates

I’ve spent much of the last month arguing in favor of mandates and vaccinations, and I notice that this statement pissed me off quite a bit. It’s almost engineered to piss people off, to the extent it doesn’t feel like an accident, as if Fauci’s goal was to signal bad intent and further inflame tensions. 

There’s also this.

As in, you want to tell people like James that they’re being crazy, or at least have the mechanism wrong.

Rather than, you know, reinforce their narrative. 

Also likely would help if we didn’t use a giant picture of a needle on every news story.

FiveThirtyEight has a breakdown of unvaccinated America, which tells the usual story that there’s a constant pool of ‘I will never ever ever get the vaccine’ attitudes, while a steady portion of everyone else gets vaccinated. If that’s the case, then keeping our vaccination rate essentially constant is quite the accomplishment at this point, as it’s drawing from a quickly narrowing group of people. 

The most important chart there, to me, is this one:

This is not a story about lack of access or time off of work. It’s a story of people who are scared of the vaccine, mostly for factually wrong reasons, and aren’t scared of Covid.  

FiveThirtyEight attempts here to answer some of the justifications for vaccine hesitancy. It’s not perfect or complete, nor would I agree with every argument, but at least it seems likely to help rather than do further damage. A major theme of the objections addressed is the mindset that doesn’t differentiate 1% from 99% – the idea that if you could get infected after the vaccine, and you also might not get it without the vaccine, then the vaccine does nothing. Such people presumably understand this in other contexts (for example, you might crash if you drive sober rather than drinking first) but it really is a true objection here, because they want to buy a mindset rather than buy actual safety, and refusing to sell that mindset means no sale.  

Amy Coney Barrett refuses to block Indiana University’s vaccine mandate. It wasn’t a full mandate, as testing was an option, and had religious and medical exemptions. I continue to have more faith than most otherwise similarly thinking people that the Supreme Court will do mostly reasonable things and mostly enforce the rules.

San Francisco joins New York City in requiring vaccination for indoor dining.

Here’s a complete list of what requires vaccination in New York City:

You can see the room now, where someone was tasked with coming up with as many different names as possible for places requiring vaccination. What do people even do inside, anyway? We need ten different variations of indoor dining by the 11am press conference. The two sides are both trying to make the mandates look as obnoxious as possible, for different reasons.

What if something goes wrong? I see a lot of people asking questions like this:

For New York in particular, you can use the Excelsior pass as a substitute for your vaccine card. If you’re medically exempt from the vaccine and can’t take it, I think you’re simply out of luck.

What about the general question of whether you can get your vaccine card replaced if you need to? In Wisconsin the answer is clearly yes, and they say to contact the health department in the state you were vaccinated in if it didn’t happen locally. A patchwork solution isn’t ideal but I’d be very surprised if there wasn’t a way to get one in other places. Also CNN recommends scanning your card with your phone no matter what else is going on, along with some links to additional options, and that seems very wise.

New York and Washington DC require health care workers to be vaccinated (WaPo), joining California and Washington state. 

A Virginia hospital mandating vaccinations faces a nurses strike (WaPo).

Brooklyn Nets start requiring proof of vaccination at their games, as per NY rules.

The Pac-12 football conference reverted to the old rule that a school unable to field a team must forfeit the game. 

The electric company gets in on the act.

Texas nursing homes, on the other hand, do not get in on the act.

Nor do any localities in Texas, since the Texas Supreme Court has (for now) ruled that the executive mandate against mandates is mandatory, and therefore mask mandates are forbidden, although Biden is trying to use Federal coercion to change that.

He’s also going to lay down the law on nursing homes, requiring vaccine mandates if they want to keep getting Medicare and Medicaid funding. I hate the tactic, but if there’s one place you really, really want a vaccine mandate, it would have to be nursing homes. 

Incentives matter, small amounts of money can be highly motivating (such as this study from the flu vaccine), so be careful how you set them.

Mask and Testing Mandates and Other NPIs

Andrew reminds us of the key question.

There is a golden middle where population-level NPIs (non-pharmaceutical interventions) are great, which is where you can stop Covid if and only if you use the NPIs for a limited amount of time. 

If you would have stopped Covid anyway then obviously you didn’t need the NPIs.

If you can’t stop Covid that way, or you can only do so until you relax the controls, then all you’ve done is buy yourself some time that didn’t do you any good. The time needs to change things for the better, such as by getting people vaccinated. Yet Australia seems to be in no hurry to vaccinate, and places like America have already vaccinated most of the people they are going to vaccinate.

The other case is the ‘flatten the curve’ argument, where the time you purchase stabilizes the medical system. That only makes sense if you stabilize at a high level that churns through cases, otherwise what’s the point? Australia is halting things at zero.

NPIs can look good during the crucial two-week blame period, but then you’re in the same situation two weeks later, over and over again.

I disagree with Misha, I think this happened, because that’s mostly what I would have expected. 

My model is that most children who would care about such a plea were already wearing masks, and the last thing kids want to be seen doing is caring about the teacher’s health in front of their peers.  

New Zealand locks down for three days after one positive Covid test. If you’re going to play this game, by all means play to win it, but it’s not a long term solution. I’m curious how often this turns out to be a false positive.  

On a related note, reports that Amazon pulled their Lord of the Rings production out of New Zealand to the United Kingdom due to not wanting to deal with all the Covid quarantine and other restrictions.

Via MR, thread by Andy Slavitt, Former Biden White House Sr Advisor for COVID Response, laying out the need to live with Covid long term and proposing eminently reasonable actions for doing the best we can with that. Here’s his takeaways at the end:

I definitely agree that we should adopt a permanent ‘stay home if you’re sick’ norm, which we should have had anyway. The question is what we are buying, in this scenario, with all these extra precautions, the same way we’d ask what our flu precautions are buying to see if they pass a cost-benefit test, if we did cost-benefit tests. 

MR also shares this study of mask mandates. Given how non-linear the dynamics are in such situations, and the role of control systems, saying that a mandate saved a certain number of lives seems like not a reasonable way to measure whether mask mandates work, but I’m not sure what other options are available. I haven’t looked at the study myself.  

Los Angeles to require masks at outdoor concerts and festivals, regardless of vaccine status, but not require vaccination. To be fair, it looks like the threshold for this is 10,000 people, usually crammed together tightly, so even outdoors I can see taking extra precautions. 

A call for the end to mass testing in the UK, since it can’t stop the virus in any case. As always, when gathering information, one must figure out the value of information and compare it to the costs. Enough mass testing to generate good statistics seems clearly still worthwhile to me, but beyond that, what changes based on what you find? Does it do you any good?

Survey of ‘experts’ says most wouldn’t go to the gym. Most wouldn’t go to the gym anyway. Gyms are a weird case, because the main point of them is health benefits, and there are (mostly) other ways to get the same effect. Not sure what I’m going to do on this once I’m back in the city.

Delta Variant 

The attributes of Delta are the biggest and most important unknowns. 

How much more infectious is the Delta variant? How much less effective are the vaccines against it than against Alpha or the original strain? How much deadlier is it, especially to the vaccinated or to children? How much faster does it cycle through? Do its higher viral loads mess with test results?

These can all be considered as part of a series of equations.

  1. We know almost exactly how fast Delta displaced Alpha.
  2. We largely know how fast cases and deaths have been growing.
  3. We know what percentage of various countries/states are vaccinated.
  4. Alpha’s serial interval is ~5 days, Delta is likely faster and more like ~3 days.

There’s a lot of room to argue details on #2-#4. 

#2: We only know about reported cases and deaths, and our positive test percentage is down a lot so it’s possible we are missing a higher percentage of cases. However, if Delta is deadlier than Alpha, then we can’t suddenly be missing a lot more cases unless we’re also suddenly ignoring deaths, and the testing slowdown doesn’t apply to other places. One could however argue, as we will below, that if vaccinated people are a larger percentage of infections, and we’re missing a lot more of their cases because they’re less serious or don’t get tested, then that could throw this off.

#3: The base percentage is good but what we need is the effective vaccination percentage for various purposes, all of which are different. For deaths, age matters a lot, and the vaccination rate is effectively higher. For cases, how often are we detecting cases in people at various ages and with varying vaccination status? For infections and thus growth rate, how much do children matter, and how much do the vaccinated matter (which is more of a thing we’re trying to solve for, but it impacts our answer here as well)? 

#4: The faster Delta replicates the less additionally infectious it needs to be in order to displace Alpha and grow cases the way it did. The drop from 5 days to 3 is a big game.

The rate at which Delta took over from Alpha and then grew, in various places, is the central constraint. You only have ‘so much infectiousness’ to go around. The data is consistent with Delta being 50% or so more infectious than Alpha across the board. If you then put additional growth in infectiousness in one place, to the extent that it’s big enough to matter, you have to take that growth from another place. The average is an average. It’s not a floor. 

As a working example, here is a long thread doing math on ‘breakthrough’ infections and deaths, along with a Mayo Clinic study. Starts with the executive summary:

Before we go further, suppose this is right. What would that correspond to in terms of vaccine effectiveness if true?

Let’s say 15% of new infections are in vaccinated individuals. Depending on what percentage of the population counts as vaccinated, you get a different answer. 

At the time this statement was made about 70% of the adult population had at least one dose. If you use that number and they have 15% of infections, the vaccines would be 93% effective against infection, or 89% effective if they’re 20% of infections. If we cut their share down to a conservative 60% to account for partial vaccinations and children, and say 15% of infections are among the vaccinated, we get 88% effectiveness against infection. So it’s not like the 10%-20% range is either an update or scary versus our previous expectations.

For death, if we assumed the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations were identically distributed, we’d improve from 88% to 95% effective against death. But that’s not right, because vaccinations increase dramatically with age and we can essentially ignore children entirely. 

At a minimum we’re effectively looking at 75% here where it counts, which would make the vaccines 98% effective against death. That is disappointing compared to what we had before, but that’s quite the statement about how effective they were before. It’s still amazingly great.

(Standard disclaimers that there’s a bunch of confounders I’m not dealing with here, none of this is exact, but it’s for intuition pumping and Fermi estimation rather than an exact answer.)

Then we can compare that with the body of the thread, along with other data coming in.

What we find here is a comparison of the early numbers and reports, which had almost no breakthrough infections let alone deaths, and the new numbers that aren’t as insanely great.

Then of course we get a reference to Topol once again, because the world is small. Sigh.  

Even the Mayo Clinic gets in on the act (study, note that Delta was not their intended target for the study, it started too early).

The ‘as far as’ is based on the numbers for Pfizer, which did much worse than Moderna here:

I’m going to go ahead and say this is probably all hopelessly confounded. It’s all observational, they didn’t periodically test populations. The size of the difference between Pfizer and Moderna here is absurdly high. And, yeah, no. 

One big motivation for that: That obviously doesn’t make any sense in the context of the headline claims. If vaccines were only 60% effective, even if we only count 50% of the effective population as vaccinated we would still get 30% of cases as breakthrough cases. Also, if Pfizer vaccinations are only 60% effective, then as per the calculation last week Delta would represent a more than doubling of cases every four days versus Alpha until behavior adjusted, and we would have seen the Delta variant take over from 1% to over 50% of cases within a span of under three weeks, and from 1% to 99% within six weeks. 

So if we’re not seeing anything like those results in general, then either we need to explain what’s going on somehow or claims of vaccine effectiveness this low are Obvious Nonsense. These are the first checks any reasonable person would run, and I’m confused why I’ve literally not seen anyone else do the calculation. 

The prevalence of Delta in their study in May was 0.7% and in July it was ‘over 70%.’ If we assume a constant growth rate, what does that imply? I built a toy spreadsheet to see, with two free variables of daily growth rate of Delta relative to Alpha, and the initial share on May 1. We get 0.10% Delta share on May 1 and a daily growth rate of 11% of Delta relative to Alpha, which passes sanity checks. 

Which once again places us back at Delta being 50% or so more infectious than Alpha among the entire United States population. But we also think it’s 50% more infectious among the unvaccinated population alone. Can’t have it both ways. There are only so many ways out of this, as it’s a math problem. For completeness:

  1. [HYPOTHESIS] Serial interval for Covid is longer than we think.
  2. [HYPOTHESIS] Delta isn’t that much more infectious than Alpha for the unvaccinated.
  3. [HYPOTHESIS] Behavior adjusted radically during this period and somehow explains it.
  4. [HYPOTHESIS] Regional dynamics explain this or something, maybe?
  5. [HYPOTHESIS] Vaccinated people aren’t getting tested and their cases are missed.
  6. [HYPOTHESIS] Vaccinated people aren’t infectious, or at least much less than others.
  7. [HYPOTHESIS] Which cases are vaccinated aren’t tracked properly so there are a lot more ‘breakthroughs’ than the data say.

I think we can safely dismiss 1 through 4:

  1. This would contradict a lot of other data points and there’s no one proposing it. Delta is considered to move faster than Alpha, so if anything this variable makes our problem bigger rather than solving it.
  2. Delta’s mechanism is much larger viral loads, we have lots of data points showing it’s more infectious in the unvaccinated, and it spread like wildfire to take over India where no one was vaccinated. Seems highly implausible.
  3. If we separate out the Alpha and Delta case counts we don’t see any radical adjustments and I don’t see any way this solves the puzzle even if we found them – I listed this for completeness.
  4. Delta took over at roughly the same time across the country, I don’t see how this could solve the problem.
  5. Could be true, given that we think ‘breakthrough’ cases are mostly asymptomatic or at least not serious. Logically this combines well with (6), since (5) solves the ‘where are the infections’ issue but not the growth rate, and (6) solves the growth rate but doesn’t explain where the infections are.
  6. Could also be true to varying degrees. To the extent that someone never gets infectious and isn’t detected, the case doesn’t really ‘count.’ 
  7. The earlier numbers for breakthrough infections were so low that it does make one wonder about this possibility. This can substitute for (5).

So the only way to make sense of this is some combination of (5) and (7), plus a large dose of (6). In this scenario, we’ve been missing most of the breakthrough infections the whole time, either because they don’t get tested and/or we don’t write down that they’re breakthroughs, and mostly they’re not serious infections. The missing cases would be invisible, neither spreading disease nor causing noticeable problems. Not exactly a nightmare scenario, and those infections would in turn strengthen immunity going forward.

Thing is, that scenario reconciles the population data with the vaccines losing effectiveness, but it’s not consistent with the study data, because this predicts that you’d see in the study what you see in the population. This was all observational, so the missing infections shouldn’t have been detected. On top of that, hospitalization rates conditional on infection didn’t change in the study, so a bunch of missing harmless infections doesn’t work at all here. 

Mason here cites Israeli data that on its face suggests vaccine effectiveness declined down to 16% over time, with dramatic and rapid drops. I don’t consider this credible, and presume it comes from the same mistake that was previously made in Israel of assuming all the cohorts are otherwise the same. Scientifically I don’t find this plausible, and also all the arguments about growth rates apply here as well. Still, it would be wrong to silently not include such information. 

A less courteous view of the Israeli data (his full post):

Here’s the chart with and without adjusting for age, yay Simpson’s Paradox:

Then you need to adjust for other things, including that vaccination rates are higher in the cities, which was the core problem last time. I still don’t love the numbers we’re seeing here, even after adjustments, but they’re not super scary or huge outliers. 

Most of all, let’s not overthink this and lose sight of the obvious.

This was on July 29, so not fully current, but cases were already mostly Delta, and the vaccinated were the majority of adults and a large majority of the elderly and most vulnerable  Eyes on the prize.

 

There remain large unknowns in all this, but my best guesses on the state of Delta have not changed much. Here’s my current model.

  1. Can vaccinated people spread the virus if they catch it? Yes, of course they can, but less often than a similar unvaccinated person, mostly due to differences in severity and duration. This is too much nuance for the press.
  2. How effective is the Pfizer vaccine against symptomatic Delta? Over my range of possible answers, mean 86%, median 89%.
  3. How effective is the Pfizer vaccine against death from Delta? 99%+.
  4. Does the Pfizer vaccine lose effectiveness from those numbers, with time? Probably some, but nothing like the extreme numbers being suggested.
  5. Should you get a booster shot? If there’s sufficient supply and they’ll give it to you if you ask for it, I’d do it. 
  6. How much more infectious is Delta than Alpha among the unvaccinated? About 50%.
  7. What is the serial interval of Delta? Probably 3 days, maybe 4. For Alpha it’s 5.

Booster Shot

In case we need them, we’ve already purchased everyone’s booster shots. Looks like we’re going to need them.

Pfizer’s earnings report seems to have contained its latest data on booster shots, which then got covered on CNN. I don’t think anything meaningfully fishy happened, but it’s a very strange place to put your scientific data.

Booster shots are now available to the immunocompromised, and there are reports that they’re considering calling for boosters for everyone soon. Of course, until the time when the booster is the Only Responsible Thing To Do, it’s forbidden, even unthinkable to many, because that’s how things work and they think talk of boosters will discourage vaccinations.

The real nonsensical thing, however, is that if you accidentally got J&J as your first shot, well, whoops (MR). No second dose for you, let alone a third, no matter how immunocompromised you are. 

Whereas it looks like they’re not requiring proof of underlying medical conditions to get the third shot, so, as MR puts it, solve for the equilibrium.

I notice that this is sufficiently absurd that it crosses my ‘you’re not supposed to lie’ threshold. If you’re in this situation, and you want a second shot, I think it’s fine for you to do what you need to do.

Soon, you’ll be able to get a third shot eight months after your second shot. Biden plans to do this ‘when it is available (WaPo)’ as if he wasn’t the President of the United States and couldn’t get his hands on a third dose or perhaps face a slightly unusual cost-benefit calculation that might justify doing it a bit early. It’s bizarre the times that Biden thinks the geometries bind him, versus when he thinks they do not, I can mostly predict it intuitively but it’s still very strange. 

Think of the Children

Kids are at higher risk from Delta than Alpha, as one would expect.

The thing is, tripling something only matters three times as much as the original number. The actual increase here is still very small. 

How bad is it really? Scott Gottlieb points out we’re not gathering the data (REACT data).

On the one hand, yes, absolutely we should be gathering the data. On the other hand, data does not stop being true because it’s from across the pond, and child data can be compared to the adult data, so why not look at what Britain’s REACT data found? I didn’t see any takeaways on child infections, and it doesn’t seem like the best use of time for me to look right now, but someone should definitely look. 

Periodic reminder: Whether mask mandates prevent Covid transmission in schools is one of those things that’s too important to know, because it would not be ‘ethical’ to study it properly even though some places already have mandates and some do not. Still, if you want to issue a study that says masks prevent Covid transmission in schools, it would be useful to actually compare schools where they wore masks to schools where they did not wear masks. Or else, one might say you have provided exactly zero evidence

As a periodic reminder, very few people are saying anything about preventing individuals from doing NPIs to protect themselves, or telling them that they have to dine indoors or go to concerts. No one is proposing ‘banning masks in schools.’

I do realize that saying this is false is a highly uncharitable interpretation of what Biden said, I mean everyone know what he meant, take him seriously not literally and all that, but it’s also not what anyone in question is doing, and the distinction is important. Mandating a lack of mandates is not to forbid the underlying action. 

The arguments are mainly over whether to (A) mandate mandating masks or (B) mandate not mandating masks, without that much support for (C) neither mandating nor not mandating mask mandates and letting people decide under what rules they will associate, either in local public venues like schools and/or local private venues like gyms or restaurants. Thus, Florida and Texas mandate not mandating masks in schools and threaten to withhold funding, and others try to sue or coerce them into mandating mandating masks instead, or at least take Biden’s tactic of mandating not mandating a lack of mandates (WaPo) including using the civil rights act. 

You gotta love attempts like this (from the WaPo article on Biden’s booster shot):

I do think masks are an important escalation in the dystopian quotient of the American school, but it is nice to remind oneself that the existing bar was not so low.

And it’s a reminder that I can’t find an example to contradict the claim that ‘no one is banning masks in schools’ but I have no doubt that someone somewhere is doing exactly that. Schools tell you how to dress, it’s rather standard. A large percentage of schools banned masks in 2019 and assumed anyone wearing one was up to no good, and any claims regarding health benefits were doubtless mostly ignored. Everything being either mandatory or forbidden is the mindset here, and also central to what the schools are trying to instill in the children.

Periodic reminder: Air filters in schools were worthwhile before Covid anyway, estimated 0.15 SD impact on test scores, and also we shouldn’t need to cite test scores here, free our kids or at least let them breathe in the meantime.

Periodic reminder: Schools are what they are, and some kids hate them enough they prefer the dystopian nightmare that we refer to as ‘remote learning’ in order to be free of an even worse nightmare. 

Scott Alexander has a post this week called “Kids Can Recover From Missing Even Quite a Lot of School” pointing out that losing out on a bunch of school seems to do surprisingly little, even measured in school test scores, as long as you don’t miss school during the month when they’re spending your life cramming for the test before you forget everything again. Excused absences don’t do anything, even though being sick is usually rather bad for almost everything, so one could wonder whether they’re actively good for test scores. Scott doesn’t explicitly ask the obvious question, which is “does school actually do anything useful while it’s traumatizing kids to obey authority rather than examine physical reality, and ending their lives one minute at a time?” or alternatively “But Can Kids Recover From Not Missing Even Quite a Lot of School?” but he does point out that school didn’t teach him anything useful and now he’s Scott Alexander, and it didn’t teach me much of anything either, so search your experiences and draw your own conclusions, and then draw your own secondary conclusions about the pandemic. 

(Great Minds Think Alike note for next story: Between when I wrote this section and when I hit publish on Thursday, Scott Alexander came out with his links post, in which he has almost exactly the same take I do. 

Young children learn about the world by interacting with it. What would happen if suddenly all the adults around them were covering the lower half of their faces? Someone really ought to do a study, except no, no one will ever do that.

Whoops:

This is the only proposed method of possibly getting a study done, and I don’t think even this would work in context:

There is a taxonomy whereby there are two kinds of things in the world. There are things that are Risky until proven Safe by a Proper Scientific Study, and things that are Safe until proven Risky. Authorities and “experts” choose, based on framing, context and their incentives, which way to present a given thing, and a lot of the talking past each other comes from this disagreement over priors. To the extent that it’s an honest disagreement and continuous rather than a boolean, this is reasonable, and to the extent it’s not, it’s not. 

I don’t know how concerned I should be about this particular problem, but I’m confident the correct answer is not to be unconcerned, and especially not to be unconcerned due to there not being a study on it. 

Also, at least some data is in on how babies are doing these days, and Kerry’s perspective seems directionally wise, although I agree with the study authors that the social isolation is the dominant factor here rather than masks (study).

In Other News

FDA Delenda Est, but it could always be worse. We could have the TGA.

Fluvoxamine reduces hospitalization from Covid by 31% in preliminary results, Ivermectin found to have no effect. Additional coverage here. Sample sizes between one and two thousand. This is a cheap generic and known to be relatively safe, so this seems like enough to justify using it. 

Zeynep thread on Covid origins, it seems the WHO let the Chinese tell them what hypotheses could and couldn’t be in their report. Sounds about right.

The Governor of Texas tests positive for Covid, after testing negative every day or quite a while. Daily testing is an interesting idea.

Latest Vitamin D study, not directly on Covid or directly measuring deficiency, but showing that moving from a high-D area to a low-D area (due to less sunlight) is associated with worse outcomes. I don’t mention Vitamin D as much as I should, as it’s one of the practical things an individual can do that has high expected value in terms of preventing or helping with Covid, that would be a good idea even without Covid. And yet I struggle to remember to take it. 

A reminder that while you do not want to catch Covid, permanently crippling our way of life is not a reasonable price to pay for that, and we need to stand up to ‘health experts’ who think such things are reasonable and run them out of town on a rail. Such talk does not encourage reasonable short term behavior, and potentially lays the groundwork for the destruction of our way of life. Life beckons. Live it. Which, as Nate Silver notes, most people are correctly doing.

The fall plans meme is over and we have a winner, congratulations Cedric:

Magic banned Oko. That was wise.

Not Covid

If you don’t think environmental review is completely out of hand, New York City tried to pass congestion pricing, and it’s going to be held up for sixteen months to start for “environmental review” despite its impact there being purely beneficial.

If you think that’s bad, the city of San Francisco is going to build a tunnel for a train line and its baseline budget for environmental review is (all caps mandatory, there are rules) ONE BILLION DOLLARS. With a B.

Failure to do cost-benefit analysis and scope insensitivity, in one Twitter poll:

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86 Responses to Covid 8/19: Cracking the Booster

  1. Sniffnoy says:

    Hey, your section where you analyze various hypotheses about delta is a bit messed-up; it uses numbers sometimes and letters other times, and the result is pretty confusing.

  2. AnonCo says:

    Another week, another excellent post filled with useful info – Thank you as always.

    But I don’t know how much more I can take:

    Mandate forced medical intervention because I know what is good for you, but also “please stand up to ‘health experts’ who think such things are reasonable and run them out of town on a rail. … lays the groundwork for the destruction of our way of life.”

    So cringe it hurts. I will never understand, I have given up trying.

    • Seb says:

      Safety and efficacy of Intervention A are significantly overdetermined at this point. Intervention A will also allow people to go back to finding joy in their lives the way they want to.

      Safety and efficacy of Intervention B are murkier, and implementing Intervention B would also prevent people from finding joy in their lives the way they want to.

      I, for one, don’t believe that it’s totally incomprehensible how someone could be for Intervention A and against Intervention B at the same time.

      • Anonymous-backtick says:

        Speaking of overdetermined, why on earth should we expect “safety and efficacy are established” to remain part of the template for future mandatory medical procedures? After the last few years of every societal stability/rule-of-law building block being bulldozed (replaced with selective reporting, selective prosecution, selective contract enforcement, etc.) it seems bleeding obvious that one would be too. So let’s defend the bright “no mandatory medical procedures” line instead of the hazy “only mandatory medical procedures with a good reason” line.

      • Anonymous-backtick says:

        Also, yes, the vaccines are safe. But for most age/health groups, so is covid.

    • Quixote says:

      The theme is support people when they are objectively correct, oppose them when they are objectively incorrect. The real world exists. People are wrong some of the time and right some of the time.
      The norm is not always support these people they are good or always oppose those people they are bad; the action endorsed is dependent on the actual state of the world. You can’t generalize or extrapolate to other situations without evaluating the actual state of the world in those other situations.

  3. Gym mouse says:

    Pretty skeptical of the claim that the main point of gyms is health benefits. Being attractive to women in the near future is considerably more valuable to me than some abstract health benefits in the far future, and I would expect most other men to feel the same way.

    • Sniffnoy says:

      This is tangential, but, y’know, I think it’s interesting that in all the discussions of downsides of masks, I haven’t before seen explicitly mentioned — you can’t really try chatting up a stranger when everyone’s wearing masks…

      Maybe this is mentioned more in venues where people are more vehemently against wearing masks, IDK. But I haven’t noticed it mentioned anywhere I frequent.

      • Nicholas says:

        This was an explicit argument that my wife gave in favor of continuing to wear a mask, even after we both got vaccinated and broadly understand that the main benefit in wearing a mask (specifically, the printed cloth masks that we got for style/reusable daily use) was for non-medical purposes (akin to a child’s safety blanket).

        Turns out, not getting chatted up/hit on by random strangers is a very explicit benefit that she’s loathe to give up.

      • myst_05 says:

        Its actually much better, assuming you’re opposed to COVID restrictions. If you see a girl on the street without a mask and she doesn’t run 6 feet away when you say ‘hi’, you’ve obviously found someone who shares the same mindset. I’ve found my current girlfriend during the January peak of the pandemic and the very fact that she was willing to meet me face-to-face without a mask on our first date was a huge green flag.

        If you’re supportive of COVID restrictions or fearful of COVID in general, then yes, it sucks.

    • TheZvi says:

      [Monty Python Inquisitor voice] All right, health and appearance.

  4. Sniffnoy says:

    I definitely agree that we should adopt a permanent ‘stay home if you’re sick’ norm, which we should have had anyway.

    Man I just get minor colds way too often for this to be practical for me. It seems to largely just be me, too, it doesn’t seem like people around catch them from me as often as you’d expect, so, <shrug>. I mean I have to assume I’m infecting some people, but, well, it’s a small cold?

    At one old job my manager asked me why I wasn’t taking a sick day when I clearly had a cold and I was just like, ???. It was a pretty minor one and if I did that consistently, I’d use up all my sick days early in the year, and then have none left if I caught a real disease (so to speak) like the flu or something. (The flu at least thankfully has never actually come up, I get my flu shot every year and so far it’s always worked.) Bigger colds, sure, not going to go outside or to work, but in that case you don’t need to tell me not to work or go outside because I won’t want to get out of bed. But those ones aren’t the ones I get all the time.

    I dunno, maybe most other people consider even small colds a “real disease” and consider taking off work for them reasonable! But I get them so often that I basically just consider catching small colds as something that happens a bunch and there’s not really much you can do to stop it and it’s not that serious so there’s no point in worrying about it. <shrug>

    For New York in particular, you can use the Excelsior pass as a substitute for your vaccine card.

    Hahaha oh boy. So I tried getting my Excelsior Pass. Long story short, I got my QR code but the phone app won’t recognize it as valid and refuses to add it (I just saved the image instead). So now I have a QR code… but if this one official app won’t recognize it as valid, this means it’s likely that others won’t either. So I guess I’ll need to carry my vaccine card (although I guess only for indoor dining and arcades and such, which I’m mostly just planning to avoid for the moment). I tried using the form to complain about this, no response. Maybe I should call.

    • TheZvi says:

      Weird. My wife got her pass without any trouble, and in general I haven’t heard much about such problems. I haven’t bothered, but should since I’m returning to the city, and have only needed to show my card one time (at Citi Field).

      I do agree there’s individual variance in how often people get how sick, and if you’re constantly getting low-level sick you can’t always take off for it. Also, it would be evidence that you’re less likely to have anything serious when that happens. We are, as reasonable people are, talking price.

      • Sniffnoy says:

        Thinking about it, it’s possible that the problem only exists with the “pass plus” (I have no idea what the difference is), and I should retry with the normal pass and see if that works and fares any better.

      • Sniffnoy says:

        Scratch that, got exactly the same problem.

    • Eric Fletcher says:

      Anecdotally, my wife had multiple colds her whole life. Then shortly after we got married she had an allergy test panel done for unrelated reasons. Turns out she was allergic to wheat.
      After removing wheat from her diet, she stopped getting colds (and generally felt healthier all around). Our hypothesis is that she was constantly stressing her immune system with the allergens, making her prone to opportune infections.

  5. L says:

    Arguments for the (government imposed) vaccine mandates just don’t have an acceptable logical conclusion.

    You can’t use consequentialism when it comes to government power, which is the big mistake I have seen rationalists and smart people making for the past 1.5 years.

    If that power is given, the power won’t come back, ever. Governments don’t abide by rationalism. They exist for one thing and one thing only: to expand, and to never shrink. The argument used by the government to take power will be used to do a million other things; nothing to do with the original.

    If “public safety” is used as the argument to allow vaccine mandates, “public safety” will then become an accepted argument for the government to do *anything.*

    Be careful what you wish for. I didn’t read you prior to 2021 (great blog btw), but I have a feeling you wished for safety prior to receiving the vaccine. Well, now you’ve got it. Forever it seems. What did/will we all sacrifice for that wish?

    • TheZvi says:

      As I noted last week, I’ve said my peace on such matters. I will note that the idea that mandatory vaccinations represent a large expansion of governmental authority is a crux.

      I find your last paragraph bizarre, since it implies that *getting the vaccine* required giving up freedom. Whereas the government not only didn’t mandate it for me, it *made it illegal for me to get it* for many months, without them I would have gotten it far sooner. Makes me think that somehow the vaccine itself is being viewed as anti-freedom.

      The argument above, the part that I do understand, does seem to be a fully general argument for anarchy. It’s not talking price.

      • L says:

        I appreciate your response… and apologize for being one of the not-so-useful comments you mentioned below (I read last week about your response to the anti-vaccine-mandate folks but for some reason still decided to throw my two cents in).

        Take it as a bad habit needing correcting. I (plus others, probably) am used to just using comment sections as a venting platform.

        Seeing as how you take the time to read the comments and often even respond, you deserve better comments, so I apologize.

        Please know that your blogs are awesome and truly the best discussion of COVID + other matters that I’ve seen. Your work is truly appreciated. Folks like me who are just normal dudes looking to learn from really smart people learn an incredible amount from you.

  6. Alcibiades says:

    “I know of no vaccine that has ever been unsafe to take while pregnant”

    MMR, varicella, and several others (essentially any live vaccines) are not given in pregnancy.

    • TheZvi says:

      Ah, good to know, I’ll update.

      • LB says:

        Perhaps, given your ignorance about basic facts related to the issue, you should doubt your intuitions about biological mechanisms, and moderate your claims in the updated post.

      • If you’re interested in why people think COVID-19 vaccines might affect fertility, I wrote a mini-review. Looked through the popular literature to assess where it might have come from, and through the scientific literature to debunk it.

      • LB says:

        Weekend Editor — this has nothing to do with the claim that vaccines affect fertility. There is a large class of drugs which are dangerous for fetuses, but safe for (at least) adults. These drugs in general have no effect on fertility.

        Rather than doubt Zvi’s biological intuitions about what is safe for pregnancy, we can calibrate them relatively simply. Let’s run a contest. An adversary will pick a set of drugs with known safety profiles for fetuses, and Zvi will tell us whether or not they are safe.

      • TheZvi says:

        I will continue to post “I don’t know of (or can’t think of) an X” when I don’t know of an X, and post “I’ve done research and still can’t find an X” when I’ve done research and can’t find an X.

      • LB says:

        Zvi 9:00 pm — I interpreted your original post as claiming that there is evidence (namely lack of biological mechanism) that Covid vaccines are safe for fetuses. If this was not your intent, then I apologize for the harsh tone of my previous comments.

        The study that you cite as providing evidence for safety is observational — it compares rate of pregnancy complications among women who received the vaccine to the historical rate. Uncontrolled trials, and comparison to historical baselines, may be misleading in this case. There is evidence that the rate of pregnancy complications has been lower during Covid, [for unknown reasons](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.09.21258622v1.full):

        >A Danish nationwide study first described a dramatic reduction in extremely PTBs (xPTB) during the strict lockdown period. Following this finding, similar reductions in PTBs were reported from the Netherlands, Japan, Italy, Tennessee, New York, Israel, and the USA and a report from Ireland described a reduced proportion of very low birth weight babies. However, smaller studies from California, Philadelphia, Israel, Spain, and London, as well as a recent nationwide Swedish study could not confirm these findings.

        If this is correct, then this study design will provide a downwardly biased estimate of vaccine harm.

  7. Seb says:

    Oko, Uro, Omnath – should ALL be in the meme!

  8. Josh S says:

    A significant number of people in my school district are exactly calling for a mask ban, i.e. never allowing kids to wear masks in school, and are very vocal in our school board meetings. Thankfully our school board is responsible and is following the recommendations of local, state, and federal health authorities. I don’t know if this counts for evidence since they didn’t implement the ban, but there are a lot of people out there that are asking for it, not just a ban on mask mandates.

  9. Ben says:

    “The slowdown in growth is across the board, with no sign that the South is going to peak first and then we’ll get an explosion in the Northeast. If that happens, which it might, it will probably happen in the winter.” Before this, my default expectation was that Delta would come through all areas of the states relative to their level of vaccinated/previously infected population. If this is not the case, what is your explanation for this? If delta causes cases to go up in Israel, Iceland, Florida, and Texas why would Michigan, Pennsylvania, New York and Massachusetts have less of a spike in cases?

  10. potato says:

    Fever is a common side effect of COVID vaccines, and fever in the first half of pregnancy is associated with birth defects. It’s not clear whether elevated body temperature itself is the cause rather than some other aspect of the underlying infection, but there’s enough of a concern that OBs routinely advise pregnant women not to use hot tubs.

    • TheZvi says:

      Yeah, that’s the reasonable objection, which of course I’d never heard until after posting, but yes it’s a non-zero amount of thing to worry about.

  11. lslunis says:

    I’ve been using https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccination-trends to check the current vaccination rate since you can filter by People Receiving Dose 1.

  12. DaveEtCircenses says:

    A note on the NZ lockdown; there have been many isolated cases not resulting in lockdowns. Most cases look like: somebody arrives at the border, isolates (because travel rules), interacts with a limited and known set of people, tests positive, all the contacts isolate, covid suppressed.

    This single case in Aukland has sort of appeared out of nowhere. Any connection to the border and quarantine facilities hasn’t been found, so they really don’t know too much about how far the single case has already spread.

    New Zealand have done a ‘Hammer and Dance’ quite well, using heavy travel restrictions as the main steps of their dance while waiting on vaccines. Picking up the hammer to deal with a possible outbreak (with a 3-day national lockdown and 7-day local lockdown) may well result in less net restriction overall (as opposed to everyone avoiding indoor dining and the like, slowing life down quite a lot and not fully suppressing covid for months).

  13. TheZvi says:

    General comments note:

    I started out this blog largely with the intention of getting interesting comments and having good conversations. For a long time, I got almost no comments, but those that I did get were on average excellent and reliably were worthy of my time, were informative, and brightened my day.

    As the year has gone on, and I’ve drawn in more people to these posts, that’s steadily become less and less true. Noise is up, signal is down, unhelpful competitiveness and stress is up. Almost like this is becoming a comments section on the internet. It’s not fun anymore, and I notice myself emotionally hoping NOT to get any comments, which isn’t a good sign.

    I’m not sure what to do about this. The old solution of ‘only people you want to talk to would comment in the first place’ isn’t working.

    I’d like to be able to disengage, but the comments are a vital error correction and additional information source, so that isn’t really an option. I have the temptation to censor the things making me averse when I don’t think they’re providing value, but I have strong principles to not do that, and have yet to delete anything that isn’t requested by the poster to be deleted or obvious spam.

    Open to suggestions, and will be thinking about what to do.

    • mattlashof says:

      I don’t know if WordPress allows this but I wonder if you can impose a collapse or spoiler tags on comments you don’t think contribute to the discussion, so that you can kinda make them less visible, mark that you don’t like them, and reduce the incentive for other people to reply, but not actually prevent anyone who wants to from reading them. Kinda similar to what Reddit does by default for sufficiently downvoted posts.

    • myst_05 says:

      Do you have access to your Patreon subscribers emails? What I’d do is import all the subscriber emails into the WordPress ‘allowlist’ and put everyone else into pre-moderation. So if you pay at least $1/month to support the blog, you’re a trusted member by default. If you don’t pay, your comments have to go through a filter. You can also add emails of commentators that you like to the whitelist to slowly expand the ‘free speech’ circle.

    • Seb says:

      Do you have a trusted friend who could filter comments before you seeing them? That would ensure only quality comments are published, and you’d only see the useful ones.

      I work in communications, and so I generally am that filter for the people higher up the chain. My executive gets all signal and no noise.

      • TheZvi says:

        This isn’t that level of operation – e.g. I don’t get paid beyond the little bit from Patreon that people actively want to give me. If I had more resources, maybe.

    • Nicholas says:

      Do you have a post on, or a rough idea about, guidelines on the types of comments that you would find useful/worthwhile/etc?

      As a “nearly never” commenter (both here and on most of the rest of the web) I’d find such a guide useful since what might be a “good” comment in one corner of the web would be “overly wordy and pretentious” in another, “lacking in nuance and overly bombastic” in yet another. Being able to identify what you want to see is (hopefully) a start at curating the type of content you want.

      That having been said, I don’t share the same base principles of “censorship by smaller platforms is bad” so take this with a large block of salt.

      • TheZvi says:

        I don’t have such a post, no. Brevity is valuable but nuance is welcome when it matters – the goal is to together figure things out, and to avoid rehashing blame games and partisan arguments, and also be at a level where it all makes sense. I’d need to write the post carefully.

    • Matty Wacksen says:

      >The old solution of ‘only people you want to talk to would comment in the first place’ isn’t working

      Ask people you don’t want to talk to to stop commenting? You’ll probably get what you ask for (ban everyone who doesn’t comply); question is of course whether you want this…

    • dreeves says:

      Eliezer’s post on reign-of-terror moderation — https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/tscc3e5eujrsEeFN4/well-kept-gardens-die-by-pacifism — made me do a 180 on this question. I think you should ruthlessly delete anything that isn’t, in your own opinion, a clear positive contribution to the discourse! That’s what I do. (Well, it’s what I try to get myself to do but it’s often too stressful to actually do it.)

      • TheZvi says:

        A classic. I think RoT makes sense for hyper-rationalist areas, less so for stuff like this, where censorship is pretty terrible and it’s important to set a good example. Still, one must have standards. At minimum, I’d have a censorship-free discussion post for others, I think, if it came to this.

    • Lambert says:

      Will this solve itself once you’re not making weekly covid posts?
      Maybe you could stick to esoteric rat or mtg inside baseball blogging for a while after the pandemic is over. And another explanation of simulacra levels for those of us sat at the back who still don’t entirely get it.

      • TheZvi says:

        As appealing as hiding does sound, I think giving away the platform would be a serious mistake. I just need to figure out how to handle it. This isn’t a crisis situation or anything, I’m noticing that there’s a problem and trying to figure out a solution. But it’s a reasonable suggestion!

  14. Matty Wacksen says:

    >Still, boosters are more effective than not having boosters, and I think the cost-benefit for most people favors getting a third shot if one is made available to you

    Show your working? Why stop at 3, nth boosters are probably more effective than (n-1)th boosters. Last (or before) post in the comments, you argued(*) that being unvaccinated confers about 0.5 flu-like illnesses to the vaccinated. Given that the immune response to a second shot can be quite heavy, it isn’t obvious that a bit of extra protection from covid is worth it.

    (*) I disagree with these numbers, for reasons detailed there.

    • TheZvi says:

      No. If you don’t like it, do your own.

      • Matty Wacksen says:

        Sorry if I came across as rude; also apologies if my other comments have been more rude than just of a different opinion (I just read your comment on comments above); my point is not to be rude but to offer counterarguments to ideas I strongly disagree with because they are used to enforce power and not sufficiently questioned.

        Re: boosters – I’m just trying to understand why suddenly everyone thinks it is obvious that booster shots for everybody make sense. A large part of the vaccine hesistancy movement is “If I take a shot now, 6 months later I’ll need to take another one, 6 months later again; when will it end?” and I’m a bit shocked at the sudden pivot to booster shots everywhere when really it seems like the current vaccines are working fine.

      • TheZvi says:

        Yeah, the whiplash on boosters is a thing – I think it’s mostly worth it, but it’s mostly fine to pass at least for a while, and it’s the standard narrative flip.

        I get that you want to offer counterarguments, but… yeah.

  15. Sniffnoy says:

    It’s surprising to me that phobia of needles is such a significant factor here. Does anyone have numbers regarding this? I wouldn’t have expected it to be so common.

  16. Matty Wacksen says:

    > My model is that most children who would care about such a plea were already wearing masks

    You can’t honestly think “wearing a mask” means “caring child” as opposed to “of a certain tribe”? I read this kind of statement as equivalent to “My model is that all of the good sunday-school-going children would care about the teacher whereas the nonbelievers only think about money”.

    • Eric Fletcher says:

      The triple venn diagram of “cares about the teacher as a person,” “is wearing a mask,” and “is a certain tribe” has almost all of its mass in either the 3x overlap region or outside the 3 circles.
      The causality among the three is uncertain and possibly multi-directional and reinforcing, but this is a rube / blegg kind of situation. https://robertblanc.com/favorite-articles/less-wrong-articles/disguised-queries-lesswrong-20

    • Brockenborings says:

      For my part, I wonder what age range we are talking about for this class. I can see where elementary and especially middle school kids would be pretty much oblivious to the teacher’s request, meaning they would not so much intentionally disobey as simply forget about it in the first place without a parent there to remind them. I would expect high schoolers to nearly universally respect it. But maybe my classes were outliers. (Or it was so long ago that thing have changed?)

      • Matty Wacksen says:

        Lots of variables matter. But I do think the “mask wearing children care” kind of thinking in the post is very naive and frankly somewhat insulting towards those who have a different religion/culture/tribe in the sense that they don’t follow corona rules (the ones I know are mostly very caring people in other situations, the rejection of corona rules isn’t because they are bad people). I think the religion analogy is fitting; if the teacher had said she has bad eyesight and therefore asked Muslim children to take off their hijabs so she could distinguish them better we wouldn’t conclude that those who didn’t hated the teacher.

  17. Matty Wacksen says:

    >This was on July 29, so not fully current, but cases were already mostly Delta, and the vaccinated were the majority of adults and a large majority of the elderly and most vulnerable

    Commenting on the links saying how large a percentage of hospitalizations/deaths in DC etc are of the unvaccinated – I notice I am confused; in Israel a majority of the hospitalized are vaccinated for Simpson’s paradox-like reasons, why don’t they apply to DC? Shouldn’t they apply to DC also, could it be that these numbers quoted are chosen very selectively (i.e. dishonestly)?

  18. Someone says:

    Hi Zvi,
    I previously and unintentionally posted here under my name. Would you mind deleting that comment along with this one?

  19. Weronika says:

    Typo: presumably in “So the only way to make sense of this is some combination of (5) and (7), plus a large dose of (7)” one of the 7s should be a 6

  20. CovidBunker says:

    Any follow-up to the British long-term brain damage findings, which were non-negligible even for relatively mild cases? This is now my main concern, not hospitalization/death since I’m young and vaccinated.

    • TheZvi says:

      See the discussion when it was first brought up. There’s a lot of ways to explain the results that don’t involve brain damage, but we don’t really know anything. My guess is that it’s not a large effect in expectation, but it’s not zero.

  21. angharad says:

    thank you for your fantastic covid coverage zvi. if it were up to me, i would make nyt.com redirect to your blog.

    i have a very basic / stupid question on vaccine effectiveness. if you have the time, i would appreciate you humouring me.

    suppose vaccinated people have similar viral loads to unvaccinated people, as recently suggested by PHE. how are vaccines >99% effective at preventing hospitalisation/death if they don’t reduce viral load?

    isn’t the reason vaccines are protective without being sterilising because they reduce the viral load enough to prevent severity, but not enough to prevent infection itself?

    (“Analysis by Public Health England has shown that when vaccinated people catch the virus, they have a similar viral load to unvaccinated individuals, and may be as infectious.”

    Source: https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/astrazeneca-lead-scientist-says-delta-makes-mass-testing-pointless-in-uk-20210811-p58hpe.html)

    • TheZvi says:

      Vaccinated people almost certainly *don’t* have similar viral loads, but also vaccination helps with the response after you get the viral load. It’s a multi-stage defense.

      • Sebastian H says:

        Released today. Proof that the live viral loads in vaccinated people tend to be *much* lower than unvaccinated people.

        https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.20.21262158v1

      • Craken says:

        After looking at the paper Sebastian H links to below, I wondered why it doesn’t show stronger evidence of lower viral loads in the vaccinated. The simple answer is because they’re comparing Delta with pre-Delta infections. Another possibility is that the subjects in that paper were tested early in their illness, when their immune response is primarily dependent upon circulating antibodies. These drop quickly after vaccination and, after starting out 4x as high, within 6 months of vaccination are below the levels found in people with infection-based immunity. It takes a few days for memory B/T cells to kick in and generate a full antibody response. Given low circulating antibodies, viral loads could then be similar among vaxxed and unvaxxed in the first few days, and dissimilar thereafter, with the loads in the vaxxed dropping more quickly as Covid specific antibodies flood in. Presumably the timing and degree of infectivity among the vaxxed would parallel this pattern.

    • LB says:

      Sebastian H:
      >Proof that the live viral loads in vaccinated people tend to be *much* lower than unvaccinated people.

      What data in the paper provides evidence for this?

      • Craken says:

        I didn’t see any good evidence for that claim in the paper.

        They offered this comparison:
        “The mean Ct-value upon diagnosis was similar between these two groups: 24.6 (15.3 – 33.9) for vaccinated HCWs and 24.2 (14.53 – 33.8) for unvaccinated HCWs (p = 0.53, t-test).”
        The catch–which they note–is that they’re comparing Ct-values caused by a pre-Delta variant in the unvaccinated to Ct-values caused by the Delta variant in the vaccinated.

        The other piece of evidence is also only an indirect indicator of infectivity, and at the best doesn’t seem to demonstrate *much* lower viral loads:
        “The SARS-CoV-2 culture of nasopharyngeal swabs was positive in 68.6% of vaccinated HCWs versus 84.9% of unvaccinated HCWs with primary infections (p = 0.005, t-test).”
        This test only “detects RNA produced in infected cells rather than whole (infectious) virions and is therefore not an optimal indicator of infectivity.”

        Places with partially vaccinated populations who are doing test and trace ought to have better real world evidence on this question.

  22. Triskele says:

    Not necessarily for Zvi but is there any indication AZ is getting approved in developing countries? Are they in no hurry? Did the Chinese over-sell Sinovac and it kinda sucks and now nobody wants to try again? The original vision for AZ was a universal cheap vaccine and now it seems like old news and everyone blames Pfizer offering boosters for an unvaccinated developed world. I’m confused but probably under informed here.

    • TheZvi says:

      They definitely oversold Sinovac. I haven’t seen any indication AZ is getting any approvals it hasn’t already gotten but it’s not clear that I would see any such signs.

  23. TheZvi says:

    Moderator’s Note: I have removed a comment at the request of its author, along with the messages requesting its deletion. The request was at least reasonable, and I apologize for not getting to it sooner. I am generally happy to delete things on request but do not know how to give you the power to do so yourself – if anyone knows a way to do that let me know.

    In terms of the broader moderation question, for now I will continue to have a ‘all remotely reasonable things welcome’ policy, and work on a more detailed policy for the future. For now assume a version of the LessWrong rules – seek to inform and enlighten, or ask things about which you’re curious, and offer models and reasoning, and you’ll do fine. Avoid politics that isn’t entwined with the discussion at hand, especially combative politics.

  24. alchemy29 says:

    Thoughts on the lambda variant? If it is sufficiently different that it evades immunity gained through vaccination and infection with the other strains, will it inevitably replace Delta? Should we be getting a head start on producing specific booster shots for spike protein variants?

    • TheZvi says:

      Talked about it a few weeks ago – it’s been around a while and isn’t taking over, so I’d be rather surprised if it had meaningful escape abilities.

  25. Dave Baker says:

    The Simpson’s Paradox stuff is very useful and reassuring. I’d often wondered how much of the pessimistic-looking information we’re seeing is an artifact of more vaccinated people belonging to higher-risk groups. Perhaps immunity is not waning, or not very fast at least.

    When it comes to boosters, I have concerns about side effects. Myocarditis (a pretty severe issue!) affected about 1 in 100,000 with the second shot of the mRNA vaccines. Nobody got it from the first shot. I doesn’t seem crazy to imagine that a third shot might have a heightened risk of this serious side effect. I haven’t seen any empirical information one way or another.

    I’m sure Zvi saw this on MR, but for others (re waning immunity): https://twitter.com/andrewlilley_au/status/1428237516759396355?s=12

    Also, good Philippe Lemoine post: https://cspicenter.org/blog/waronscience/why-covid-19-is-here-to-stay-and-why-you-shouldnt-worry-about-it/

    “T-cells mount a particularly robust immune response because they target a much greater number of epitopes than antibodies, so even the virus mutates to prevent antibodies resulting from a previous infection to bind it, this is unlikely to work against T-cells because the entire viral proteome of the virus, i. e. the complete set of proteins expressed by the virus, would have to be different. But SARS-CoV-2 mutates pretty slowly, so although new variants regularly emerge and will continue to do so in the future, most peptides from the virus will remain the same and therefore T-cells will still be able to recognize them.”

    “The pandemic is on its way out, but SARS-CoV-2 is here to stay. Fortunately, as everyone develops immunity to it (whether through vaccination or natural infection), it will soon no longer be a major problem anymore. The virus will continue to circulate, but much less than during the pandemic and, even when people are infected, the infection will typically be mild. In the future, almost everyone will get infected for the first time during their childhood, which is harmless and will protect them against severe illness when they are reinfected.15 The virus will continue to mutate and some of those mutations will favor immune evasion, but while this will allow it to infect people who have already been infected or vaccinated more easily, immunity should continue to protect against severe forms of the disease, thanks in particular to the role played by T-cells. This is likely what happened with other human coronaviruses, which are already endemic and typically cause a cold in the people they infect. To the extent that immune evasion occurs, it will be very gradual and the fact that most people will be infected every few years will update their immunity, ensuring that subsequent reinfections will also be mild. The most vulnerable people, whose immune system doesn’t work very well and could use some help to be ready in case of infection, can get a vaccine booster from time to time. The virus will still kill people, as the flu does, but it will never cause the same amount of disruption again.”

  26. Questions says:

    Maybe someone here can answer a question that I’ve had and haven’t been able to find answer: Why is there no talk of delta booster shots? From what I gather Moderna designed their vaccine in 2 days and part of the amazing value of mRNA vacines in general is their “programmability”.

  27. J says:

    If you had the option of any booster (J&J, Pfizer, Moderna) after first original 2 doses of Pfizer, which would you go for?

  28. Michael B says:

    Sorry to link NYT but this is the least low quality summary of the evidence I can find.

    In some blue states the percent of COVID hospitalizations that are breakthrough are now in the teens.

    I’m not sure what to make of this. Most states aren’t providing breakthrough hospitalization reports.

    My reassuring pet explanation to myself is that there’s a baseline of immunocompromised people that are vaccinated but they’re not gaining immunity, and they’re getting sick all at once in these blue states because delta is raging and these states previously had high distancing and lockdown regimes so they were relatively protected until now.

    • Humphrey_Appleby says:

      The other obvious factor to account for is age stratification in vaccination rates. The elderly are overwhelmingly vaccinated. But a vaccinated 80 year old is still more likely to be hospitalized than an unvaccinated 40 year old. Also, add in the fact that an increasingly large fraction of the unvaccinated `control’ group has immunity from prior infection, and you should expect to see apparent vaccine performance (vis a vis the control group) decline over time even if nothing changes in actual vaccine performance.

  29. Cosmo says:

    Hey Zvi, I’m having a hard time following the recent updates on breakthrough cases, spikes in countries with high vaccination rates, and the varying levels of protection. Should I still assume that two shots of Pfizer taken in May/June/July:

    a) should significantly reduce risks (more like 80-90% than 40% of protection), now and over the course of the next 6 months?
    b) reduce the overall transmission rates from vaccinated people?
    c) do not increase vulnerability towards the new strains?
    d) do not promote the emergence of new and nastier mutations?
    e) justify basically normal functioning even for risk-averse people (while taking basic protective measures)?

    Also, are there any recent updates on the FLCCC protocols? At this point, trusting FDA or relying on luck during the medical appointments/hospital admissions seems like a bad strategy…

    • TheZvi says:

      Yes to all five.

      I don’t have as much confidence in the correct treatments if things do happen, other than that getting antibody treatments seems clearly correct as soon as you can get them provided you need treatment at all.

      • Bon Iver Meck-Tin says:

        Antibody treatment is time-sensitive and involves an invasive, less accessible procedure, usually done when the patient’s state is serious. Real-time meta analysis of 63 papers suggest that the early use of [i-word] leads to a 61-75% improvement, fIuvoxamine is said to lead to an 89% improvement (19 studies).

        So far, I haven’t seen a single solid takedown of FLCCC and/or C19Early, and this is the only thing I want from our mainstream institutions at the moment.

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